The Ryan Suter has no value aka value for puck movers thread

[The BBKL Insider]

all the crappie teams piping in for stat relief

still a good idea

[anton]

seems unnecessary but whatever, im easy.

[thom54]

moving goalies to 3 stats may de-emphasize them a bit too much, ... SO to Saves? That would reward quantity of goaltending (which, yes, wins correlate as well), as well as "quality" GAA and S%

+/- would be the player stat I'd go for.

[Robin Hood]

moving goalies to 3 stats may de-emphasize them a bit too much, ... SO to Saves? That would reward quantity of goaltending (which, yes, wins correlate as well), as well as "quality" GAA and S%

+/- would be the player stat I'd go for.

3 goalie stats gives a tandem an average category power of 1.5. Every skaters value is below 1. I think that is perfectly fine. +/- is an imperfect stat but it still is relevant.

[bills09]

is Defencemen points a stat?

[Nick]

We had shots in the past, it's entirely dictated by goalie GP in a week, already shows up in SV%' and was actually double counted via SOG.

I actually proposed dmanPts in the original group of league statistics. It should not be implemented without some thought. We would need to restrict the position # (currently 6-7), should probably just be 6.


The original argument against DmanPts (that I accepted and moved on from) was that it makes them more valuable than scoring forwards, and is not representative of actual impact in a game. Ie ~ it doesn't matter in the NHL if a hit is from a Dman or a centre, nor does it matter who shoots at the goalie; this is the same for us, in all other categories we don't care who does it, this would be a change to specialized categories.

And H2h player is always tough to compare to a finesse/smart player - but why should we add value to the finesse Dman, and not the finesse forward?


Cap hit is the big value dictator at the moment. Pat Kane Thomas Vanek and Phil Kessel do not have their proper value either, despite playing HUGE minutes (for a forward); I struggle to see why it should matter in a week where scoring came from, I didn't have any counter 4 years ago ~ and don't see one today.


I do not believe +/- or SO are great stats, but they do both fairly represent something in the game.


The added category that favours some big regular strength minute players, is even strength points. Adds to both finesse forwards and Dmen.

[bills09]

when we switched out sog for points. we added value towards finesse forwards, defencemen minutes played might even be a solid stat if possible.. imo would add value to true top pairing defencemen.

[Nick]

? We didn't switch out SOG?

We did switch Saves to points, but that added value to all skaters compared to goalies, as well as adding an important comparison point that was silly to not have.


Our league value is off in that for cheap players we have value on less skilled players who grease it up when on the ice, but thats actually somewhat reflected in the NhL too, lots of 'more skill' players not in the NHL that don't do the tough things.

[kimmer]

moving goalies to 3 stats may de-emphasize them a bit too much, ... SO to Saves? That would reward quantity of goaltending (which, yes, wins correlate as well), as well as "quality" GAA and S%

+/- would be the player stat I'd go for.

I thought about that as well.

So then, how about a generalized category which emphasizes ALL players involved in a certain stat category but at the same time, slightly makes offensive d-men more valuable than they are currently now and still not lose a goalie category completely?

I propose: Powerplay time on ice

ALL elite/1st pairing offensive d-men will log in heavy PPTOI, as well much like goalies playing in SHTOI counting towards the category, does so as well for PPTOI.
Only 'issue' i might see here is that the forward skaters who log in heavy PPTOI might gain even more value than they originally have... but then, those players are already pretty untouchable as it is (SC87/Gino/Ovi/Kane etc)
The fringe top 6'ers/high end bottom 6'ers who get their minimal PP2 line time in might also gain slight value which is nice (Torres/Filppula etc)

Oh and hey... if we implement this, the Sedin sisters value slightly goes up1?!?

[KapG]

This is retarded...

You start adding shit like dman points and some of us are going to have to completely restructure our back end.

Can't say I've seen any issue with the way things have been in the past four seasons I've been involved in.


Seriously. This is fucking dumb.

edit: excuse my french

[kimmer]

i own campbell/boyle

[hong57]

This is retarded...

You start adding shit like dman points and some of us are going to have to completely restructure our back end.

Can't say I've seen any issue with the way things have been in the past four seasons I've been involved in.


Seriously. This is fucking dumb.

edit: excuse my french

Although I agree that defenseman like brian campbell, brian boyle aka high payroll guys are a burden to their cap due to lack of production, i think this new stat favour ONLY certain small amount / group of players and actually like kyle says, most of us have to restructure the backend just so we can win this stat that is ONLY good for scoring defenseman. This indirectly penalized GMs who has did enough homework to pick and pay a price in obtaining the right defenseman who can most contribute to their team in overall category contribution, and to a certain extend favours only certain GM of the league. I think that when you paid to obtain brian campbell in this league, you KNEW what he is going to contribute, how much he can do for your team, and compare it with their cap. Then you ask. is it worth it? should i get him? should i use this cap to get a high price forward instead??? Making poor judgement results in having an unproductive player which has a high cap hit to their team is a result of poor GM ing and if you think Ryan Suter/ Campbell makes too much for what he's really worth, don't get him!
While i appreciate every effort of this thought out idea and re-evaluate the category contribution year-from-year, i think this does favours really GMs who own high cap defenseman that goes less productive for your team (due to less pk time? less hits?) which results in poor GMing (i haven't look at who owns these players and from a neutral standpoint).
I think a category that can reflect a players value is their TOI. productive and good players always get more ice time than players of less value. no matter if the defenseman is a high scoring dman or h2h dman, if they contribute well to their team they will get enough ice time, and hence reflecting their value to the category.

[Robin Hood]

After hearing KyleNYR/Hong's argument, I agree. People have built teams according to particular values. And guys like Suter/Doughty etc will have their values shoot back up when the cap increases next season.

[shooker]

I disagree with people having built their teams accordingly being a valid excuse. After year one we undervalued finesse players so we changed a stat because it made sense. (goalie saves to pts) people had already built towards a certain design and had to change more then just their back end to take advantage of these new stats. Why did we change? because skilled forwards were undervalued. I feel finesse defensemen have very little value and that could be solved rather easily.

Nick your argument towards finesse dmen being worth more then finesse forwards is a valid concern. However, after seeing multiple sites run numbers over multiple years now, I don't believe that is an issue. Rarely is a dman valued in the top 10, with very similar statistical leagues as ours, when using DEF as a stat but usually there is a nice mix in the top 25, which I believe is a good thing as it emulates real life, but leagues without don't have many in the top 25 at all.

I realize that this only effects the value of finesse dmen but really, how can you argue that other dmen aren't being given their proper value as of now? You can't. they are easily being given their proper worth, if not more.

I disagree with your comment s about Suter and Doughty gaining value after this season, they sure didn't have value last season with a cap of 70m lol.

Like I said, I will stay status quo if that is what people want. I just see a major flaw and was making a suggestion. I think it could really help balance the gross difference between scoring forwards and scoring dmen. The fact is there was only 19 Dmen who managed 40 or more points in the last 82 game season making those men rare talents in bbkl. Included in those 19 were the likes of Yandle, Boyle, Suter, Weidman and Campbell who have very little value in this league. I feel that is an injustice to that type of player and misrepresents actual nhl value. I just think we are not giving proper value to players who are elite in the nhl at what they do.

again just my opinion and definitely thought it was worth a look. I have been looking for the perfect stat mix for a money league my buddies and I are starting and found there was no way to get proper balance without DEF. we are running a very similar stat line but without the ones designed to give value to 4th liners. the mix was 9 forwards, 9 defensemen and 7 goalies in the top 25 with the mix we decided upon which is pretty balanced, when DEF was taken out there was only 1 dman in the top 25.

Anyways said my peace.

[anton]

im confused about why doughty and suter need more value in the first place. and i own doughty.

[bills09]

This is retarded...

You start adding shit like dman points and some of us are going to have to completely restructure our back end.

Can't say I've seen any issue with the way things have been in the past four seasons I've been involved in.


Seriously. This is fucking dumb.

edit: excuse my french

really not sure why your mad bro.
any changes made to statistically cats, would not take effect until the 14/15 season and it is so late in the year, this is just league wide discussion on changes towards the league. Something IMO should happen more often before CC/Admin decisions take place.
Comments such as this are useless, no offence bro.

[Nick]

Well, Kyle just expressed his view of changing stats, and it's that we don't have a problem, and this fix would make a problem we do not currently have.

I actually agree with that stance as well, I think Dmen are highly, and appropriately valued. I paid Kopitar when he was #1 in league scoring for Shea Weber when he had a slow start (plus a pick or good prospect iirc) like 4 years ago, BUt more than anything, I think our current view of salary caps is more reflective of the NHLs = they are to be avoided, unless you need to keep the player.

I'm sure Dan Boyle in the NHL is very hard to move, and Brian Campbell has already been given away, ditto on JayBo - Suter and DD would cost an arm and a leg to get, this also seems accurate to the NHL.

Dropping SO or making it a tie breaker is an interesting venue IMO, but changing stats (as Billy said) befor the 14/15 season would be acting in haste.


Some people are worried about activity ~ they should set the examples they want, post more, trade more. It shouldn't rely on Steve, Shook, Kareem, ' Shiv to be driving activity. I do not think we need to artificially change something to spike activity, and I believe camps will start the chatter again.

[bills09]

Well, Kyle just expressed his view of changing stats, and it's that we don't have a problem, and this fix would make a problem we do not currently have.

I actually agree with that stance as well, I think Dmen are highly, and appropriately valued. I paid Kopitar when he was #1 in league scoring for Shea Weber when he had a slow start (plus a pick or good prospect iirc) like 4 years ago, BUt more than anything, I think our current view of salary caps is more reflective of the NHLs = they are to be avoided, unless you need to keep the player.

I'm sure Dan Boyle in the NHL is very hard to move, and Brian Campbell has already been given away, ditto on JayBo - Suter and DD would cost an arm and a leg to get, this also seems accurate to the NHL.

Dropping SO or making it a tie breaker is an interesting venue IMO, but changing stats (as Billy said) befor the 14/15 season would be acting in haste.


Some people are worried about activity ~ they should set the examples they want, post more, trade more. It shouldn't rely on Steve, Shook, Kareem, ' Shiv to be driving activity. I do not think we need to artificially change something to spike activity, and I believe camps will start the chatter again.

im not suggesting change, merely stating if said changes were to be decided this late into the summer it would not take into effect until the season following giving teams time to adjust.

[KapG]

This is retarded...

You start adding shit like dman points and some of us are going to have to completely restructure our back end.

Can't say I've seen any issue with the way things have been in the past four seasons I've been involved in.


Seriously. This is fucking dumb.

edit: excuse my french

really not sure why your mad bro.
any changes made to statistically cats, would not take effect until the 14/15 season and it is so late in the year, this is just league wide discussion on changes towards the league. Something IMO should happen more often before CC/Admin decisions take place.
Comments such as this are useless, no offence bro.

Just because there is a little anger in the post doesn't mean it's useless .

People say there is a value problem in our league with regards to Dmen who are just point producers. Well, most of the guys people were listing, Yandle, Jaybo and campbell etc all have "value issues" of their own in the real NHL imo. I mean, how many teams REALLLY want to pick up campbells contract of 7+ million or whatever it is? What about Jaybos ridiculous contract? These guys have limited value in the real NHL because of their cap hits and what they bring to the table. Why should it be any different in our league?


The one stat category that was brought up that I thought might make sense to add was the Even Strength category which I think Nick brought up.

[shooker]

I can tell you one thing, you wouldn't be landing kopitar for weber now a days. I still see it as a big problem but clearly others don't care. no biggy, I was just trying to balance out worth. Campbell is the only hard move out of the names listed. Jaybo's contract is actually not ridiculous at all and he was moved rather easily to a competitor with tight cap. Regardless my argument was more so that people will spend their cap on forwards because statistically they are worth way more than Dmen which is true, I don't want to argue about contracts. lol