The Ryan Suter has no value aka value for puck movers thread

[bills09]

IMO the main reason to include PPTOI would be to change the vast difference in nhl value to bbkl value for players like Kane, Kessel, Sedins, B. Campbell, E. Karlsson etc.

yes the the well rounded top players gain value but those players are considered elite peices already so whats the difference.

Also I really dont get why people are so heated and afraid of such a mild change to our scoring system, especially if given a full year to get their roster sorted out.

Just my 2 cents.

[KapG]

Nothing wrong with the sedins value or e karlssons or kanes or kessels.

Just look what they've been traded for. Campbell has a shit contract and as such his vLue is hurt. Much like in the real nhl...

[kimmer]

I got Campbell and Clarkson for futures+VERY GOOD periphery player. Oh wait, see the periphery heavy dmen ARE worth elite d like Campbell!

[KapG]

I got Campbell and Clarkson for futures+VERY GOOD periphery player. Oh wait, see the periphery heavy dmen ARE worth elite d like Campbell!

Campbells contract is fucking garbage Paul. Why do you think you got him so cheap? Especially when taking into consideration that next years cap dropped HUGE.

[kimmer]

Lol ya but I certainly don't think I got him cheap! Gave up too much future value!

[KapG]

Lol ya but I certainly don't think I got him cheap! Gave up too much future value!

once upon a time futures held lots of value...alas now not so much. Im a big futures fan myself so it kinda stinks that their value isnt what it once was.

[bills09]

Nothing wrong with the sedins value or e karlssons or kanes or kessels.

Just look what they've been traded for. Campbell has a shit contract and as such his vLue is hurt. Much like in the real nhl...

your crazy if you think phil kessel or patrick kanes bbkl value is equal to their nhl value because its not even close.

[shooker]

IMO the main reason to include PPTOI would be to change the vast difference in nhl value to bbkl value for players like Kane, Kessel, Sedins, B. Campbell, E. Karlsson etc.

yes the the well rounded top players gain value but those players are considered elite peices already so whats the difference.

Also I really dont get why people are so heated and afraid of such a mild change to our scoring system, especially if given a full year to get their roster sorted out.

Just my 2 cents.

wish more people thought like this billy. This isn't even what I wanted when I started this thread, but after nicks Z-scores proved that we needed to do something about finesse overall and not just dmen, I became ok with this idea. The list that Facey also put up of the top PPTOI per game showed a lot of players in their who aren't properly appreciated, who would receive a value bump with a stat change. LOL upon reflection, I don't know if anyone helped the argument for a stat change more then facey. Like you also said the other guys are already viewed as elite, nothing would change for them.

I don't get why people are so up in arms about one cat. It would give value to those that need it (Markov, Semin, Whitney, Voracek, Ehrhoff, Ennis etc) but only count for 2 points in every week. Even if somehow a team, in a full year, couldn't managed to adjust their teams, which would be brutal, there would still be 30 points on the board each week for them to win. Most teams have already made the conscious decision to ignore certain categories already because there is already too many to choose from. This would really just allow for another type of build. It should be encouraging not upsetting.

If it goes through or not this is still a great conversation to be having.

[shooker]

Nothing wrong with the sedins value or e karlssons or kanes or kessels.

Just look what they've been traded for. Campbell has a shit contract and as such his vLue is hurt. Much like in the real nhl...

your crazy if you think phil kessel or patrick kanes bbkl value is equal to their nhl value because its not even close.

I agree with Kane not having the same value, oh and looky there he is on a current non playoff team... coincidence? Lol Kessel however, wears the blue and white, the homerism actually makes him pretty on par with his actual nhl value imo.

[KapG]

I've owned Patty Kane, I was able to get very good value out of him. This is when he was listed as a C as well.

[bills09]

true Phil Kessel has leaf value, but fact remains, hes an elite peice at the nhl level, and is not even close to being an elite bbkl peice.

[The BBKL Insider]

I've owned Patty Kane, I was able to get very good value out of him. This is when he was listed as a C as well.

that was my mistake, Kane doesn't hold the true value he should.

[KapG]

I've owned Patty Kane, I was able to get very good value out of him. This is when he was listed as a C as well.

that was my mistake, Kane doesn't hold the true value he should.

you wait long enough and are patient enough people will make mistakes, .

I've owned Vanek a few times and got good returns out of him.

[bills09]

also trade value is not what is being argued. its statisical value of these players towards are league.

[shooker]

After reading back. Lets use numerical increments instead of percentile if Z-Scores come up again, which I am guessing they will.

Suter 25 with an under the average Goals, FOW, Hits & Pims has an average Z-score of 0.667566539 puts him in the top 25.2205%

top 25.2205% sounds reasonable but that means he is in the top 211.5 players last season... guy was nominated for a noris. MSL was top 13% means top 109, won the Art Ross.

Not an attack, just saying percentiles are misleading. They make it sound good when it is actually not a great position.

top 15 means you are in the top 126 players. I would actually like to know where the Sedins and someone like Andre Markov listed last season by these Z scores. Anyway to post easily the top 100 players? I actually think it would be useful

[KapG]

also trade value is not what is being argued. its statisical value of these players towards are league.

trade value is a by product of statisical value, isn't it?

and yes trade value is whats being argued. At least that's why shook started this whole thing...

To quote part of what shook said on the first page.... " I feel that stat representation is missing for Dmen thus making players like Brian Campbell, Drew Doughty, Jaybo, Dan Boyle etc worth far less then an = high price forward.

[shooker]

also trade value is not what is being argued. its statisical value of these players towards are league.

trade value is a by product of statisical value, isn't it?

and yes trade value is whats being argued. At least that's why shook started this whole thing...

In Shooks original post he said " I feel that stat representation is missing for Dmen thus making players like Brian Campbell, Drew Doughty, Jaybo, Dan Boyle etc worth far less then an = high price forward.

you are right and wrong here. My statement was directed towards helping D so my original statement has nothing to do with the current arguments at stake. The arguments have changed rendering my statement useless. However you are right we are arguing trade value as it does relate to stats, you raped that trade and is one that I bet Steve looks back on and goes... wtf was I thinking. If you look at other patty kane trades you begin to see what his value really is. I would stop bringing that trade up or steve will never want to trade with you again, that's how bad of a raping that was lol.

[The BBKL Insider]

yup, one of my worst trades to date was that patty kane deal, kapG can't use that to argue this point

(i'm not suggesting your arguement is wrong - you just can't use that as typical trade value)

[Nick]

Nothing wrong with the sedins value or e karlssons or kanes or kessels.

Just look what they've been traded for. Campbell has a shit contract and as such his vLue is hurt. Much like in the real nhl...

your crazy if you think phil kessel or patrick kanes bbkl value is equal to their nhl value because its not even close.

I agree with Kane not having the same value, oh and looky there he is on a current non playoff team... coincidence? Lol Kessel however, wears the blue and white, the homerism actually makes him pretty on par with his actual nhl value imo.

Stats suggest Kane actually has a much bigger impact than the league gives him credit for - unique case though because the categories he doesn't score in are cases where the average isn't that far off of poor, so him being elite in so many other categories makes his BBKL impact rather large.


Still probably undervalued compared to his actual NHL impact though.

[Nick]

After reading back. Lets use numerical increments instead of percentile if Z-Scores come up again, which I am guessing they will.

Suter 25 with an under the average Goals, FOW, Hits & Pims has an average Z-score of 0.667566539 puts him in the top 25.2205%

top 25.2205% sounds reasonable but that means he is in the top 211.5 players last season... guy was nominated for a noris. MSL was top 13% means top 109, won the Art Ross.

Not an attack, just saying percentiles are misleading. They make it sound good when it is actually not a great position.

top 15 means you are in the top 126 players. I would actually like to know where the Sedins and someone like Andre Markov listed last season by these Z scores. Anyway to post easily the top 100 players? I actually think it would be useful

Would have to Z-score for everyone... note that redefining the population (ie removing the 300 players w/o 25gp on the year) will effect the averages and standard deviation, hence new Z-scores.

I might make this list right now... sitting on a stupid telcoference anyways.