2015 Draft Discussion

[Chuck Norris]

Since my name has been brought up in here I'll chime in.

Call me an asshole but I have ended talks involving a goalie almost instantly with everyone who has inquired thus far. Mrazek has been the main target but Kuemper and Masons names have come up as well, and I have told everyone I'm not moving them right now. I'm in no rush to shake up my roster right now, especially in net. I've had teams loaded with goalies and I've had teams with 0. I know the value in owning viable goalies.

The simple point has already been mentioned, we do our draft before the real one and no one is a magician that can tell where every goalie prospect will be drafted. Before PBHL I had never heard of owning an entire system. What happens when a goalie switches teams in free agency? Or an unknown steals the starting job? This league is has been going on for too long to change the system without screwing a majority of the league. If you want goalies, draft them. Goalie specs are a crapshoot, why punish the GM's taking the risks on drafting them.

Some guys will charge an arm and a leg for a player, that's pretty standard for any position not just goalies. I charge more for some of my pieces and charge less for others. I don't give anything away free (usually) and I don't expect anyone to just be handed to me either. It's give and take. If you want a piece, pay for it.

My only counter to this is that it's one thing to pay for a guy; no issue with that. My concern stems from those that ask astronomical prices for mid to lower end goalie spects. Guys like a Mrazek or Saros or Demko I get....but it gets ridiculous when lesser guys are held to similar standards as the top end guys.

[Matthew]

Some people see potential where others dont see potential. If you think the guy being held for a lot isnt going to be a great goalie, then why do you absolutely need him in the first place?

Previous SJS GM thought I was insane for wanting to hold onto Dubnyk when he had just purchased the Minny system. He kept offering me a 2nd round pick. He thought he was a forever backup. I looked at his stats on terrible teams and noticed that he put up decent stats on those teams, and consistently outplayed the same teams other goalies by a wide margin. Was I holding a career backup hostage because I wouldnt trade him for a 2nd?

[foofnik]

Some people see potential where others dont see potential. If you think the guy being held for a lot isnt going to be a great goalie, then why do you absolutely need him in the first place?

This^^

Why pay for a goalie to complete a system when you don't think they're worth much to begin with. Get a starter, a backup, some goalie specs for the future, and you're fine. This whole "need" to complete a system makes no sense to me. If you don't want to draft/develop/acquire goalies, well that's your own decision/problem and not something the league should bending over to fix.

[Sensfanjosh]

Some people see potential where others dont see potential. If you think the guy being held for a lot isnt going to be a great goalie, then why do you absolutely need him in the first place?

Previous SJS GM thought I was insane for wanting to hold onto Dubnyk when he had just purchased the Minny system. He kept offering me a 2nd round pick. He thought he was a forever backup. I looked at his stats on terrible teams and noticed that he put up decent stats on those teams, and consistently outplayed the same teams other goalies by a wide margin. Was I holding a career backup hostage because I wouldnt trade him for a 2nd?

A 2nd is pretty standard price for backups in BBKL having Eric insist that that was the price is not a slight on him, but having held onto him you're likely to profit unless he falters next year, its the risk you take. My point about Soderstrom in my own personal experience, is its not about 'absolutely needing him' but about having the security of a complete system, and that is worth something in the league where two or three goalie injuries aren't uncommon and can press sub-par goalies into service which is where a complete system is handy. I'm not quite sure why you see a lot of potential in Soderstrom as an aside as he's posted pretty average or below average numbers in development leagues, and wasn't a high pick to begin with etc etc etc.

Backups in the NHL are moved for 3rds and 5ths etc and here guys are paying 2nds and 1sts which makes it really difficult for rebuilders because if they don't move the picks they miss GGP and if they do they have a system but can't draft the high end talent they need.

[The BBKL Insider]

Some people see potential where others dont see potential. If you think the guy being held for a lot isnt going to be a great goalie, then why do you absolutely need him in the first place?

Gotta say i agree. I dont have other teams goalie prospects because i find them a roster spot waste to carry. That said i know Darkness has both McDonald and Gillies and if i'm him there's no chance i'd trade those guys. i'm not sure who the owner of the flames system is? but if i'm Darkness there's no way i'm moving those two top goalie prospects for anything less than another systems top goalie prospects.

[Sensfanjosh]

Some people see potential where others dont see potential. If you think the guy being held for a lot isnt going to be a great goalie, then why do you absolutely need him in the first place?

This^^

Why pay for a goalie to complete a system when you don't think they're worth much to begin with. Get a starter, a backup, some goalie specs for the future, and you're fine. This whole "need" to complete a system makes no sense to me. If you don't want to draft/develop/acquire goalies, well that's your own decision/problem and not something the league should bending over to fix.

Again ths issue is injuries etc during the year, if your starter goes down suddenly you have no backup/ starter depending on the team and you're now forced to pay for a 4th string goalie as if he was a starter or backup

[Matthew]

Some people see potential where others dont see potential. If you think the guy being held for a lot isnt going to be a great goalie, then why do you absolutely need him in the first place?

Previous SJS GM thought I was insane for wanting to hold onto Dubnyk when he had just purchased the Minny system. He kept offering me a 2nd round pick. He thought he was a forever backup. I looked at his stats on terrible teams and noticed that he put up decent stats on those teams, and consistently outplayed the same teams other goalies by a wide margin. Was I holding a career backup hostage because I wouldnt trade him for a 2nd?

A 2nd is pretty standard price for backups in BBKL having Eric insist that that was the price is not a slight on him, but having held onto him you're likely to profit unless he falters next year, its the risk you take. My point about Soderstrom in my own personal experience, is its not about 'absolutely needing him' but about having the security of a complete system, and that is worth something in the league where two or three goalie injuries aren't uncommon and can press sub-par goalies into service which is where a complete system is handy. I'm not quite sure why you see a lot of potential in Soderstrom as an aside as he's posted pretty average or below average numbers in development leagues, and wasn't a high pick to begin with etc etc etc.

Backups in the NHL are moved for 3rds and 5ths etc and here guys are paying 2nds and 1sts which makes it really difficult for rebuilders because if they don't move the picks they miss GGP and if they do they have a system but can't draft the high end talent they need.

Soderstrom was Sweden's WJC starter this season, and hf has him listed as the Isles top goalie prospect, on an NHL team(isles) that i dont see keeping its current NHL starters forever, like other teams. I thought there was a decent chance he could come over in the next few years. Either way, I don't own Soderstrom anymore: Darkness has him.

And yes, I know hf isnt a reliable source, but for goalies i havent watched in their home leagues, its what i have.

[Sensfanjosh]

One last post then I'm done with the topic, but most of those defending the current system as newer GMs who have had the privledge of starting off with goalies. I think if you ever find yourself in the predicament of needing to acquire a starter to meet GP as a rebuilding team your attitude towards goalies might be more sympathetic to the problem Chuck and I are trying to get at here, I'm pretty sure Lee is also in agreement with us on this as well, not sure who else.

[kimmer]

Who deleted my post

[Matthew]

If I trade away Arizona, and I will, I will only have Dubnyk, and if he goes down, i will need to pay up. That is my own mistake, no one elses, given i know the price of goaltending. Blaming others is a weak gming excuse for my mistakes. Maybe teams should learn from others and not trade away all their goaltending when going into a rebuild. Lee rebuilt, and ended up with the best goalie in the league, but he paid for it.

[foofnik]

One last post then I'm done with the topic, but most of those defending the current system as newer GMs who have had the privledge of starting off with goalies. I think if you ever find yourself in the predicament of needing to acquire a starter to meet GP as a rebuilding team your attitude towards goalies might be more sympathetic to the problem Chuck and I are trying to get at here, I'm pretty sure Lee is also in agreement with us on this as well, not sure who else.

Been there done that. One of my other leagues I inherited Ramo and Berra as my goalies. There is a GP limit in there as well. You make it work. You make some deals, you wait for opportunities to come, you figure it out. Prices on goalies in there are right there as they are in here. You use your assets to the best of your ability and you make it all work.

[Chuck Norris]

I do want to point out that in my history in BBKL I have put together systems for MTL (complete build), CLB (near complete build - since broken up), NJD (complete build) and now working on VAN. So I feel like I have a little more experience than most in terms of what people charge for goalies as part of systems.

In Fraser's case for example I think you'll have a little more perspective on things when Vasi either a) doesn't play half his team's games or b) does but gets hurt long term - and you miss GP. Because you lose goalie cats every week you drop in the standings to say a top 2 pick; but then that gets fined for missing GP. Suddenly you feel the need to acquire a goalie to make GP requirements and you'll see what people are going to charge you for one of their spare starters...

This is all I am going to say on the topic. Clearly there isn't the stomach for entertaining the idea so I'll let the idea die right here. Gonna go out and draft me a bunch of goalies now...

[Shoalzie]

Dave is up...he made that swap with Mik.

[Matthew]

I agree with everything Chuck has just said. If anyone would like a starter before they find themselves between a rock and a hard place mid-season, Mike Smith is available.

[Fraser]

I do want to point out that in my history in BBKL I have put together systems for MTL (complete build), CLB (near complete build - since broken up), NJD (complete build) and now working on VAN. So I feel like I have a little more experience than most in terms of what people charge for goalies as part of systems.

In Fraser's case for example I think you'll have a little more perspective on things when Vasi either a) doesn't play half his team's games or b) does but gets hurt long term - and you miss GP. Because you lose goalie cats every week you drop in the standings to say a top 2 pick; but then that gets fined for missing GP. Suddenly you feel the need to acquire a goalie to make GP requirements and you'll see what people are going to charge you for one of their spare starters...

This is all I am going to say on the topic. Clearly there isn't the stomach for entertaining the idea so I'll let the idea die right here. Gonna go out and draft me a bunch of goalies now...

Ayyyeee don't burry me quite yet. Been having quite a few goalie related discussions as of late, a lot of time between now and when I may hit a potential point of desperation due to injury and/or players not following the trajectories I have mapped out for them.

[Chuck Norris]

I do want to point out that in my history in BBKL I have put together systems for MTL (complete build), CLB (near complete build - since broken up), NJD (complete build) and now working on VAN. So I feel like I have a little more experience than most in terms of what people charge for goalies as part of systems.

In Fraser's case for example I think you'll have a little more perspective on things when Vasi either a) doesn't play half his team's games or b) does but gets hurt long term - and you miss GP. Because you lose goalie cats every week you drop in the standings to say a top 2 pick; but then that gets fined for missing GP. Suddenly you feel the need to acquire a goalie to make GP requirements and you'll see what people are going to charge you for one of their spare starters...

This is all I am going to say on the topic. Clearly there isn't the stomach for entertaining the idea so I'll let the idea die right here. Gonna go out and draft me a bunch of goalies now...

Ayyyeee don't burry me quite yet. Been having quite a few goalie related discussions as of late, a lot of time between now and when I may hit a potential point of desperation due to injury and/or players not following the trajectories I have mapped out for them.

Of course, my post is only valid if your circumstances do not change.

[kyuss]

Some people see potential where others dont see potential. If you think the guy being held for a lot isnt going to be a great goalie, then why do you absolutely need him in the first place?

well said.

Previous SJS GM thought I was insane for wanting to hold onto Dubnyk when he had just purchased the Minny system. He kept offering me a 2nd round pick. He thought he was a forever backup. I looked at his stats on terrible teams and noticed that he put up decent stats on those teams, and consistently outplayed the same teams other goalies by a wide margin. Was I holding a career backup hostage because I wouldnt trade him for a 2nd?

and that's exactly the same that happened to me with Darling and previous SJS GM


anyway, if majority and CC will feel the need to put a limit to the # of goalies a team can own it won't be the end of the world (as long as it doesn't apply too soon, hurting teams that may be already over the limit after this draft)

[The BBKL Insider]

anyway, if majority and CC will feel the need to put a limit to the # of goalies a team can own it won't be the end of the world (as long as it doesn't apply too soon, hurting teams that may be already over the limit after this draft)

This is probably not a bad idea (i'm not on either side of this argument so i really dont care)

but i see a game limit for goalies in the minors as a benefit to the league.

[dave1959]

anyway, if majority and CC will feel the need to put a limit to the # of goalies a team can own it won't be the end of the world (as long as it doesn't apply too soon, hurting teams that may be already over the limit after this draft)

This is probably not a bad idea (i'm not on either side of this argument so i really dont care)

but i see a game limit for goalies in the minors as a benefit to the league.

this

[kyuss]

wrong spelling at #134?