WAS/CLB Goalie Swap

[Shoalzie]

i think you're missing the part where forbort and the other two 1st rounders have trade value LOL.

Coming from a guy that doesn't keep his draft picks.

As I said, draft picks are opportunities and prospects are unproven commodities. I'm loading up on picks and prospects but it can very well blow up in my face. Giving up value in a player at the expense of prospects and picks is less costly in the short term than it is to give up proven players off your active roster. That's why it's rare to see any of the contending teams in this league give up a proven player for picks or prospects because it doesn't help them now. What Kareem did was give up young pieces with his goalies for two goalies that can possibly help him NOW. Those picks and prospects are only worth something when they develop. For now, they're opportunities. They can either succeed or fail. My reason for loving this deal is the return of Conklin and Halak over Lalime and Miller.

[Shoalzie]

p.s. how cool is it that you get to root for my team in the playoffs haha (datsyuk, franzen, lidstrom, howard, osgood)

I don't pick favorites here, bub...

If I was of right mind last year, I wouldn't have done half of the moves I made last year. I traded those guys because the Wings collectively were having a down year. Now that they're backing to being of the best teams in the regular season, you can win with them. I traded them when their value was down...definitely the wrong move. Had I kept Datsyuk, Lidstrom, Rafalski, Howard, etc...I'd probably be a top team right now. You're welcome.

[Robin Hood]

i think you're missing the part where forbort and the other two 1st rounders have trade value LOL.

Coming from a guy that doesn't keep his draft picks.

As I said, draft picks are opportunities and prospects are unproven commodities. I'm loading up on picks and prospects but it can very well blow up in my face. Giving up value in a player at the expense of prospects and picks is less costly in the short term than it is to give up proven players off your active roster. That's why it's rare to see any of the contending teams in this league give up a proven player for picks or prospects because it doesn't help them now. What Kareem did was give up young pieces with his goalies for two goalies that can possibly help him NOW. Those picks and prospects are only worth something when they develop. For now, they're opportunities. They can either succeed or fail. My reason for loving this deal is the return of Conklin and Halak over Lalime and Miller.

shoalzie again you're missing the part where forbort and the other two 1st rounders have trade value LOL.

i may not have any draft picks but they are what i used to turn my team into a top contender. bry can EASILY now use those 3 1st rounders to upgrade other positions. thats why im saying that you are looking at this trade in a very flawed way. the prospects and picks could be busts but that is not the point. bry can trade them and drasticaly improve his team.

the trade is not close to even. how can you fail to see that?

[Scott]

Shiv.. I think you're missing the point.. Shoalzie doesn't give a fuck what you, or anyone else thinks. he likes the deal for his reasons and that's that. Fuck man, who really gives a fuck?

[Shoalzie]

Everything in this league has value but when you get what you want in a deal, you can't fault a guy for overpaying. I don't think Kareem was walking around with Miller/Lalime and 3 futures and hoped he'd get a good goalie tandem in return. He went out and aggressively paid for it. When you want something of high value and a team doesn't want to give them up, you have overpay to give the other team the comfort of knowing that they got value in return. A concept that is missed around this league is that just because you want someone off another team...you're supposed to give up something of value to get said player and not just try to get them from a handful of lint and buttons. Prime pieces will cost you. Kareem paid a lot but he got a lot.

[MSP4LYFE]

If anyone wants to know my rational for this trade read Shoalzie's post, he is dead on, and Shiv, you are missing one huge factor here, CAP...I can't afford Steven Stamkos with Ryan Miller, now I can. I'll take that over Forbort and some picks.

To those calling Halak overrated, you are all out to lunch, his numbers have been consistently great over his career, dating all the way back to the AHL. There is no reason to believe Carey Price will ever be the better goalie, other than hype that dates back to his draft season. Production means more than where you were drafted, and Halak's production leaves me very comfortable giving up what I gave up. The only valid concern I have is his work load, can he handle 60+? Well I suppose we will see, and if not I am extremely comfortable in Ty Conklin, I cannot say the same about Lalime.

[Robin Hood]

Shiv.. I think you're missing the point.. Shoalzie doesn't give a fuck what you, or anyone else thinks. he likes the deal for his reasons and that's that. Fuck man, who really gives a fuck?

why cant two people in this league debate about something without it being taken the wrong way? its ironic that you felt the need to make a post to give your own opinion. why did you give "enough of a fuck" to make that post? to me it was just a debate with a fellow bbkl member.

[Robin Hood]

If anyone wants to know my rational for this trade read Shoalzie's post, he is dead on, and Shiv, you are missing one huge factor here, CAP...I can't afford Steven Stamkos with Ryan Miller, now I can. I'll take that over Forbort and some picks.

To those calling Halak overrated, you are all out to lunch, his numbers have been consistently great over his career, dating all the way back to the AHL. There is no reason to believe Carey Price will ever be the better goalie, other than hype that dates back to his draft season. Production means more than where you were drafted, and Halak's production leaves me very comfortable giving up what I gave up. The only valid concern I have is his work load, can he handle 60+? Well I suppose we will see, and if not I am extremely comfortable in Ty Conklin, I cannot say the same about Lalime.

kareem i wasnt arguing with shoalzie about the value you got. if you actually read my earlier posts i said that you overpaid to get something you were looking for. what i was arguing with shoalzie about was when he said the trade's value was close to even. objectively, the trades value is nowhere near even despite the benefits you received in the trade.

[Scott]

Shiv.. I think you're missing the point.. Shoalzie doesn't give a fuck what you, or anyone else thinks. he likes the deal for his reasons and that's that. Fuck man, who really gives a fuck?

why cant two people in this league debate about something without it being taken the wrong way? its ironic that you felt the need to make a post to give your own opinion. why did you give "enough of a fuck" to make that post? to me it was just a debate with a fellow bbkl member.

You can debate full and freely.. it's just when you keep saying the same thing over and over, just in a different way that gets annoying as hell. Shoalzie liked the trade, you didn't.. move on.

[MSP4LYFE]

If anyone wants to know my rational for this trade read Shoalzie's post, he is dead on, and Shiv, you are missing one huge factor here, CAP...I can't afford Steven Stamkos with Ryan Miller, now I can. I'll take that over Forbort and some picks.

To those calling Halak overrated, you are all out to lunch, his numbers have been consistently great over his career, dating all the way back to the AHL. There is no reason to believe Carey Price will ever be the better goalie, other than hype that dates back to his draft season. Production means more than where you were drafted, and Halak's production leaves me very comfortable giving up what I gave up. The only valid concern I have is his work load, can he handle 60+? Well I suppose we will see, and if not I am extremely comfortable in Ty Conklin, I cannot say the same about Lalime.

kareem i wasnt arguing with shoalzie about the value you got. if you actually read my earlier posts i said that you overpaid to get something you were looking for. what i was arguing with shoalzie about was when he said the trade's value was close to even. objectively, the trades value is nowhere near even despite the benefits you received in the trade.

He didn't say that, what he said is that picks are far away from holding real value, and that the pieces that help now are potentially in my favour, and I completely agree. I'm not an idiot Shiv, this is like the 10th team I've quote on quote "seriously overpaid", and yet I continually have a stacked lineup, and cupboard...When you get the right players, and I believe I have (debatable) there is no such thing as overpaying.

[Robin Hood]

Shiv.. I think you're missing the point.. Shoalzie doesn't give a fuck what you, or anyone else thinks. he likes the deal for his reasons and that's that. Fuck man, who really gives a fuck?

why cant two people in this league debate about something without it being taken the wrong way? its ironic that you felt the need to make a post to give your own opinion. why did you give "enough of a fuck" to make that post? to me it was just a debate with a fellow bbkl member.

You can debate full and freely.. it's just when you keep saying the same thing over and over, just in a different way that gets annoying as hell. Shoalzie liked the trade, you didn't.. move on.

its more annoying to interfere in a conversation to try to put an end to it when shoalzie and i were talking without any problem lol. next time you run into a conversation you dont want to be a part of, take your own advice and "move on"

[Robin Hood]

If anyone wants to know my rational for this trade read Shoalzie's post, he is dead on, and Shiv, you are missing one huge factor here, CAP...I can't afford Steven Stamkos with Ryan Miller, now I can. I'll take that over Forbort and some picks.

To those calling Halak overrated, you are all out to lunch, his numbers have been consistently great over his career, dating all the way back to the AHL. There is no reason to believe Carey Price will ever be the better goalie, other than hype that dates back to his draft season. Production means more than where you were drafted, and Halak's production leaves me very comfortable giving up what I gave up. The only valid concern I have is his work load, can he handle 60+? Well I suppose we will see, and if not I am extremely comfortable in Ty Conklin, I cannot say the same about Lalime.

kareem i wasnt arguing with shoalzie about the value you got. if you actually read my earlier posts i said that you overpaid to get something you were looking for. what i was arguing with shoalzie about was when he said the trade's value was close to even. objectively, the trades value is nowhere near even despite the benefits you received in the trade.

He didn't say that, what he said is that picks are far away from holding real value, and that the pieces that help now are potentially in my favour, and I completely agree. I'm not an idiot Shiv, this is like the 10th team I've quote on quote "seriously overpaid", and yet I continually have a stacked lineup, and cupboard...When you get the right players, and I believe I have (debatable) there is no such thing as overpaying.

kareem ive said multiple times that you overpaid but for a good reason because it helps your team. lol read my posts. and shoalzie did in fact say earlier that the trade was even. but anyways. i hope halak doesnt help you too much .

[Shoalzie]

If anyone wants to know my rational for this trade read Shoalzie's post, he is dead on, and Shiv, you are missing one huge factor here, CAP...I can't afford Steven Stamkos with Ryan Miller, now I can. I'll take that over Forbort and some picks.

There you go...great move on multiple levels! Stamkos could become the top scorer in the league going forward. To keep him, that's a great shift in funds on your part. $2-3 million won't cover his possible raise but it'll allow you more flexibility. If you kept Miller and Lalime, you'd have to dump more salary and potentially more value.

And by no means does Columbus go without some props as well. He trades a great goalie and gets a great goalie in return plus some very intriguing future pieces. Picks and prospects are a risky proposition but they can just as easily boom as they can bust. I'd like to see what he turns these draft picks into.

[Robin Hood]

If anyone wants to know my rational for this trade read Shoalzie's post, he is dead on, and Shiv, you are missing one huge factor here, CAP...I can't afford Steven Stamkos with Ryan Miller, now I can. I'll take that over Forbort and some picks.

There you go...great move on multiple levels! Stamkos could become the top scorer in the league going forward. To keep him, that's a great shift in funds on your part. $2-3 million won't cover his possible raise but it'll allow you more flexibility. If you kept Miller and Lalime, you'd have to dump more salary and potentially more value.

And by no means does Columbus go without some props as well. He trades a great goalie and gets a great goalie in return plus some very intriguing future pieces. Picks and prospects are a risky proposition but they can just as easily boom as they can bust. I'd like to see what he turns these draft picks into.

agreed on all counts shoalzie...lol finally .

p.s. you'll inadvertently end up cheering for me in the playoffs every time you watch a wings game.

[Shoalzie]

p.s. you'll inadvertently end up cheering for me in the playoffs every time you watch a wings game.

If you happen to win because the Wings you have on your team are playing well, then good for you. I'm somewhat interested in your team considering you have several guys I used to have on my team. I always like to see how my numerous ex-players are doing for other teams.

[Nick]

Kareem over-paid because he can afford to, and he was wanting to fix an issue that was keeping out of the top-top teams.

This is a very bad value trade, and to not see that perhaps suggests why some GM's are having issues with evaluating trades. Not that you can really attest to any level on honesty on your evaluations of trades shiv -> every single one you get wrecked on if we were to take what you say @ face value.


Miller + Lalime ~ = Halak + Conks ... Miller is 100x more battle proven & Conks is a little better then Lalime (though not really worth talking about). The lower cap of Jaro helps keep this deal worth doing.... Now... Currently Halak is hot as all hell, (ditto with Conks), while Miller and Lalime are not only ice-cold, but also injured. 1st + 2nd + Forbort is an over-payement, and if some teams in the league did this they would be getting TORN apart right now, but the CAPS are in a position where they can afford to pay this hefty price and keep moving on.

This will likely be looked back upon as a very - very bad trade for Kareem. As Halak's #'s will come down quiet a bit, and Miller's will go up... and he paid that premium to get the current hot hand.

[MSP4LYFE]

Kareem over-paid because he can afford to, and he was wanting to fix an issue that was keeping out of the top-top teams.

This is a very bad value trade, and to not see that perhaps suggests why some GM's are having issues with evaluating trades. Not that you can really attest to any level on honesty on your evaluations of trades shiv -> every single one you get wrecked on if we were to take what you say @ face value.


Miller + Lalime ~ = Halak + Conks ... Miller is 100x more battle proven & Conks is a little better then Lalime (though not really worth talking about). The lower cap of Jaro helps keep this deal worth doing.... Now... Currently Halak is hot as all hell, (ditto with Conks), while Miller and Lalime are not only ice-cold, but also injured. 1st + 2nd + Forbort is an over-payement, and if some teams in the league did this they would be getting TORN apart right now, but the CAPS are in a position where they can afford to pay this hefty price and keep moving on.

This will likely be looked back upon as a very - very bad trade for Kareem. As Halak's #'s will come down quiet a bit, and Miller's will go up... and he paid that premium to get the current hot hand.

Ye...I don't agree with any of this. Jaroslav Halak is battle tested, if three rounds in the playoffs doesn't do it for you than I'm not sure how Miller does it for you either...Say what you will about Jaro and his hot play, but the lowest save percentage he has ever posted in his career was .906 as a rookie in the NHL, aside from that season he has NEVER posted lower than .915. At the age of 25 and in front of a good young blueline I see no reason to expect significant decline, nor do I expect Miller to post strong numbers in front of that Buffalo defence.

Furthermore, the difference between Conklin and Lalime is much more than "a little", to say otherwise shows me you have not examined either players stats. Lalime has less than 10 wins in over half a seasons worth of games with Buffalo, and a sub .900 save pct...

[Robin Hood]

i think nick made some solid points kareem. i think youre too involved with the trade to see how much you overpaid really at a time when halak is at an all time high (how much better than this can he really play?) and miller is at an all time low. i wont disagree on the issue that halak is better than miller for your team but i will disagree on how much you overpaid. esp when i think somewhere between now and the playoffs, miller would have started playing better and you couldve moved him if you wanted to save cap for stamkos or kept him because he was playing well enough and moved him after the season.

[MSP4LYFE]

i think nick made some solid points kareem. i think youre too involved with the trade to see how much you overpaid really at a time when halak is at an all time high (how much better than this can he really play?) and miller is at an all time low. i wont disagree on the issue that halak is better than miller for your team but i will disagree on how much you overpaid. esp when i think somewhere between now and the playoffs, miller would have started playing better and you couldve moved him if you wanted to save cap for stamkos or kept him because he was playing well enough and moved him after the season.

I'm not too involved in anything...This is the same opinion I held before I traded for Halak; I went over multiple different stats, and reports as well as taking age and cap into consideration when compiling a list of my top goaltender targets. I even scouted the top 5 on that list to ensure I wasn't being rash or making a "panic" move. I am well aware that it appears that way, from the outside, but I've been looking into this since the end of week 1. Halak was #2 on that list even before he went on his run, he brings it all, age, numbers, potential, cap and the team in front of him is sound, which was the only reserve I had coming into this, if STL were the real deal or not. I am still not comfortable labeling them the "real deal", but I am comfortable knowing they won't hurt Halak either. I should also add that I never once underwent this process with my previous three goaltenders (Ward, Fleury, Miller), in each case I went with the name player, I didn't bother examining their numbers, the team in front of them or scout their play. My thought process was simple, they have a ton of hype, ergo they are the tenders to go after. I did my due diligence on this one, and am supremely comfortable with my return, both short term and long term.

It's very easy to argue I bought at a high, but if Halak builds on his torrid pace from the halfway point of last season, his price likely escalates to the point of untouchable status, and conversely with Miller, the chances of his stock raising are, IMO just as likely as they are too drop. He has a sore knee, is coming off a season in which he severely outperformed his career norms, and is playing behind a very, very poor Sabres club. It is not written in stone that Miller gets better, and Halak gets noticeably worse.

[Shep]

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