The Ryan Suter has no value aka value for puck movers thread

[KapG]

Then again I don't see ES points so ....yah.

[kimmer]

Lol msl would gain huge fucking value

[The BBKL Insider]

Lol msl would gain huge fucking value

ironically enough, so would brent burns

[KapG]

not even sure why we need another stpts category, which is essentially all that PPGWOI (or w.e the acronym was), when we already have one. It's essentially the exact same thing accept now if your on the ice for the point and you didnt score the goal or assist on it you are going to get a point. Essentially whoever wins STPTS is going to win that category.

redundant if you ask me.

[Robin Hood]

not even sure why we need another stpts category, which is essentially all that PPGWOI (or w.e the acronym was), when we already have one. It's essentially the exact same thing accept now if your on the ice for the point and you didnt score the goal or assist on it you are going to get a point. Essentially whoever wins STPTS is going to win that category.

redundant if you ask me.

Agreed. PPTOI might be better in that sense

[KapG]

I believe that would be a better option, yes.

Still going to be an issue though IMO. The reason I say this is because most of the top end players that see those huge PPTOI are owned by all of the contenders. Going to create a bigger gap between the bottom tier teams and the top tier ones.

[kimmer]

Kyle wants Estoi. Shiv wants PPGFWI. I want pptoi. I win



Fuckers

[KapG]

as I said above, there are issues with PPTOI too. Also going to further increase the value of players which are already quite valuable.

[kimmer]

as I said above, there are issues with PPTOI too. Also going to further increase the value of players which are already quite valuable.

Agree. However the concept of having BOTH SHTOI AND Pptoi is attractive to me because there will be some sort of a balance in which every GM must face in building their roster. SHTOI heavy team will not take pptoi category in match ups and vice versa. Ppl will scramble to try to take players who do little bit of both (most valuable player like ossie comes to mind.) and dmen who also do both (who are also rare)

[Robin Hood]

as I said above, there are issues with PPTOI too. Also going to further increase the value of players which are already quite valuable.

Agree. However the concept of having BOTH SHTOI AND Pptoi is attractive to me because there will be some sort of a balance in which every GM must face in building their roster. SHTOI heavy team will not take pptoi category in match ups and vice versa. Ppl will scramble to try to take players who do little bit of both (most valuable player like ossie comes to mind.) and dmen who also do both (who are also rare)

+1

[kimmer]

Oshie*

Trying to think of a dman who does both regularly.... Doughty! Lol!!

[Nick]

Guys, there is a fundamental problem with any TOI measure. First and foremost it's a goalie GP stat, secondly it's a skater GP, and finally it's a skater TOI measure. That needs to be remembered and understood.

[shooker]

Guys, there is a fundamental problem with any TOI measure. First and foremost it's a goalie GP stat, secondly it's a skater GP, and finally it's a skater TOI measure. That needs to be remembered and understood.

we understand it, goalies get shtoi already. it is an amount you can overcome when it is say 8 minutes a night rather then 60 per goalie gp. hate to break it to you but G/A/Pts/StPTS/Hits/BS/FOW/Shtoi etc are already biased towards teams with more gp, that is a reality we already live in.

[Chuck Norris]

As far as Im concerned there is only 2 options to achieve the balance people are trying to attain.

Option #1: we add PPTOI to counter balance the extra value we put on defensive players (SHTOI)

Option #2: we remove SHTOI entirely and instead institute TOI for everyone

Not saying I'm advocating for either option myself but from a statstical standpoint thats the only way we could balance values of offensive vs defensive players. Anything else would skew values more to one side or the other.

[KapG]

As far as Im concerned there is only 2 options to achieve the balance people are trying to attain.

Option #1: we add PPTOI to counter balance the extra value we put on defensive players (SHTOI)

Option #2: we remove SHTOI entirely and instead institute TOI for everyone

Not saying I'm advocating for either option myself but from a statstical standpoint thats the only way we could balance values of offensive vs defensive players. Anything else would skew values more to one side or the other.

dislike that immensely. SHTOI is a staple of our league and to remove it would be insanity. It makes those periph players actually valuable.

We don't need to add PPTOI to counter balance the extra value we put on defensive players. Why? Because those offensive players already hold HUGE amounts of value. Try trading for one and see what the asking prices are.

Funny how this wasn't an issue before the cap dropped. Now certain players values have dipped and people are sad.

[KapG]

I also did not want ES TOI Paul. I made the comment that ES POINTS is the cat I would add.

[shooker]

As far as Im concerned there is only 2 options to achieve the balance people are trying to attain.

Option #1: we add PPTOI to counter balance the extra value we put on defensive players (SHTOI)

Option #2: we remove SHTOI entirely and instead institute TOI for everyone

Not saying I'm advocating for either option myself but from a statstical standpoint thats the only way we could balance values of offensive vs defensive players. Anything else would skew values more to one side or the other.

pptoi is the only toi stat that could work. 60 minutes per game coming from goalies could decide weeks on their own. A goalie playing 4 games vs one with two is a 120 minute gap, that is huge. PPTOI is actually a reasonable compromise imo. it adds value to players like St. Louis, Vanek, Sedins, Semin etc up front but also adds value to guys like Campbell, Boyle, Markov, Yandle, Widemen, Visnovsky. I still think forwards vs defensemen value gap wont be addressed at all, but at least def dmen vs off dmen see's some sort of balance.

[shooker]

Funny how this wasn't an issue before the cap dropped. Now certain players values have dipped and people are sad.

I was under the cap before it dropped, and I still am. I didn't have to lose any big name players. That is not the issue at all here. I pointed out how finesse on D was undervalued which turned into people realizing finesse all around is undervalued. This was always an issue but no one ever got the conversation started.

ES Points, I would actually like to hear why you think that is a good idea and how it would help balance anything out. I am not attacking, I just fair to see how it does anything but add to the value of guys like burrows of 2011 (other players now, he is just who came to mind. Mid range point getters who don't see pp time. It makes their 45 or 50 points close to that of a 85 point getter who gets 30 pp points. I have looked at the list and realize stars are still at the top but it lessons the gap between them and guys like burrows. It would just add value to mid tier guys yet again and take more away from finesse.

In other words, voice your argument so I can at least see where you are coming from. Change my mind.

[Nick]

G/A/Pts/StPTS/Hits/BS/FOW/Shtoi etc are already biased towards teams with more gp

Aside from Shtoi, none are (statistically) skewed by small GP difference. All toi measured stats are. Especially by goalie GP - the level of fallacy is very different.

[KapG]

Finesse is undervalued by some Gms. Toughness by others.


How bout teams try to find the right balance? That to me is part of the attraction of this league.


This wasn't ever an issue the previous 5 seasons (at least in my opinion. You obviously believe otherwise). Just seems ironic to me that this is only coming up now, the first tims we are seeing a significant drop in the salary cap. We knew about this drop going into this offseason as well which is why certain plYers were more difficult to move than in previous seasons. Just turns out a lot of those players are the high paid finesse ones.