The Ryan Suter has no value aka value for puck movers thread

[shooker]

Finesse is undervalued by some Gms. Toughness by others.


How bout teams try to find the right balance?


This wasn't ever an issue the previous 5 seasons. Just seems ironic to me that this is only coming up now, the first tims we are seeing a significant drop in the salary cap.

Well I brought it up. I was 1M over the cap floor to start this offseason, it had nothing to do with my motives. It might be ironic but it surely is not the motivation.

The problem with teams finding the right balance is that its pretty proven that a finesse team cannot win. We didn't want them to win every year so we added periph stats to balance that out. unfortunately we went too far which in turn, gave us a system where balance is skewed in periph direction. Teams can find a balance of their own regardless of current value, its just the human elitment to this. This wont take away from our current abilities to choose how you want to build, a single cat cat change would only add another way to build a team and imo that is working towards "the right balance" and not moving away from it.

[KapG]

Just something I thought of while reading your above post...


Teams in the NHL can't really win with pure finesse. They need a good blend of everything, much like our league.


I know this post doesn't really add anything to the so called debate. Just something that crossed my mind.

[Robin Hood]

Just something I thought of while reading your above post...


Teams in the NHL can't really win with pure finesse. They need a good blend of everything, much like our league.


I know this post doesn't really add anything to the so called debate. Just something that crossed my mind.

No one is denying this. However, in our league we go too far.

Daniel Sedin in real life would help any team win more than many grinders that BBKL values a lot. Same with Ryan Suter etc. Our category mix seems to undervalue many of these players.

[Robin Hood]

Finesse is undervalued by some Gms. Toughness by others.


How bout teams try to find the right balance?


This wasn't ever an issue the previous 5 seasons. Just seems ironic to me that this is only coming up now, the first tims we are seeing a significant drop in the salary cap.

Well I brought it up. I was 1M over the cap floor to start this offseason, it had nothing to do with my motives. It might be ironic but it surely is not the motivation.

The problem with teams finding the right balance is that its pretty proven that a finesse team cannot win. We didn't want them to win every year so we added periph stats to balance that out. unfortunately we went too far which in turn, gave us a system where balance is skewed in periph direction. Teams can find a balance of their own regardless of current value, its just the human elitment to this. This wont take away from our current abilities to choose how you want to build, a single cat cat change would only add another way to build a team and imo that is working towards "the right balance" and not moving away from it.

+1.

@Nick - your point about Goalie GP is the same argument to be made against SHTOI. But if a team gets 2 PPs in a game, the goalie will get 4 PPTOI, but a player like St. Louis may get 2:50. Over 18 skaters, the goalie's impact on the category is minimal.

Also - PPTOI is not redundant as it adds a different element just like Blocked Shots do to SHTOI. Most PKers get more Blks than non-PKers but that doesn't mean Blocks is redundant.

[KapG]

Just something I thought of while reading your above post...


Teams in the NHL can't really win with pure finesse. They need a good blend of everything, much like our league.


I know this post doesn't really add anything to the so called debate. Just something that crossed my mind.

No one is denying this. However, in our league we go too far.

Daniel Sedin in real life would help any team win more than many grinders that BBKL values a lot. Same with Ryan Suter etc. Our category mix seems to undervalue many of these players.

no team is going to win in our league with a ton of grinders. Just ask Tony how hard it is...

you need a mix of sedins/suters to go with your grinders.

Not to mention most of these elite finesse forwards are owned by the GMs who already have top tier teams which is only going to further widen the gap between top tier and lower tier teams in our league IMO.

[Robin Hood]

Also - Paul made a great point in having PPTOI along with SHTOI. Teams instead of skewing one way would constantly have to make a tradeoff between the two which would make for very interesting decisions/balance player values. Yes Josh Gorges get 300 SHTOI but 0 PPTOI. How do you build your team then? Btw, PPTOI would fuck me as I own Orpik, Klein, Alzner lol.

[shooker]

G/A/Pts/StPTS/Hits/BS/FOW/Shtoi etc are already biased towards teams with more gp

Aside from Shtoi, none are (statistically) skewed by small GP difference. All toi measured stats are. Especially by goalie GP - the level of fallacy is very different.

What you are saying is fair as everything equal toi cats will almost always go to the team with more gp where as there is more randomness to the other stats. It is a valid point. However I averaged the top 3 teams pp toi per game and it is only 6:33M of pptoi per game. Ilya Kovalchuk avg'd 5:28 himself. with only a limited amount of players playing big minutes on the pp, it suddenly becomes apparent that it is less skewed by gp then who you have on your roster.

Sure it is more skewed by gp then other stats and in an ever world the team with more gp wins, but realistically the same can be said with all the other stats. A team that choses to win the pptoi cat every week, will likely be able to overcome gp shortages vs teams that didn't aim for that cat as well. I know I have over come big gp deficits with shtoi before as that was a stat I wanted to own.

[The BBKL Insider]

combine the 2, and just go with total time on ice.

[Robin Hood]

only going to further widen the gap between top tier and lower tier teams in our league IMO.

Not taking a personal shot but I hate this argument.

We need to make adjustments based on what will make BBKL better not what will help particular teams. I own many players that would get fucked by such a rule change but I don't care. Because in the long run, teams will adjust and make trades accordingly and the league will be better anyways.

[KapG]

Don't use that traitors name bro. He should be referred to as He Who Shall Not Be Named.

[Robin Hood]

Don't use that traitors name bro. He should be referred to as He Who Shall Not Be Named.

lol

[shooker]

combine the 2, and just go with total time on ice.

can't 60mins per goalie game and only 25 at the top end. potentially 240 mins for a goalie in one week... it can't be done as total.

I for one love the idea of both. I think its the best idea we have had.

[KapG]

only going to further widen the gap between top tier and lower tier teams in our league IMO.

Not taking a personal shot but I hate this argument.

We need to make adjustments based on what will make BBKL better not what will help particular teams. I own many players that would get fucked by such a rule change but I don't care. Because in the long run, teams will adjust and make trades accordingly and the league will be better anyways.

you may hate the argument but it doesn't change the fact that parity has been the biggest issue in this league the last few seasons...This will only further widen the gap.

[shooker]

only going to further widen the gap between top tier and lower tier teams in our league IMO.

Not taking a personal shot but I hate this argument.

We need to make adjustments based on what will make BBKL better not what will help particular teams. I own many players that would get fucked by such a rule change but I don't care. Because in the long run, teams will adjust and make trades accordingly and the league will be better anyways.

+37

[Robin Hood]

only going to further widen the gap between top tier and lower tier teams in our league IMO.

Not taking a personal shot but I hate this argument.

We need to make adjustments based on what will make BBKL better not what will help particular teams. I own many players that would get fucked by such a rule change but I don't care. Because in the long run, teams will adjust and make trades accordingly and the league will be better anyways.

you may hate the argument but it doesn't change the fact that parity has been the biggest issue in this league the last few seasons...This will only further widen the gap.

The gap really isn't that massive any longer. Like the real NHL, I'd say we have about 6-8 true contenders, 6-8 mid-tier teams who can still potentially win it all. And the rest are trying to catch up. Adding PPTOI vs SO won't suddenly change that.

[shooker]

only going to further widen the gap between top tier and lower tier teams in our league IMO.

Not taking a personal shot but I hate this argument.

We need to make adjustments based on what will make BBKL better not what will help particular teams. I own many players that would get fucked by such a rule change but I don't care. Because in the long run, teams will adjust and make trades accordingly and the league will be better anyways.

you may hate the argument but it doesn't change the fact that parity has been the biggest issue in this league the last few seasons...This will only further widen the gap.

The gap really isn't that massive any longer. Like the real NHL, I'd say we have about 6-8 true contenders, 6-8 mid-tier teams who can still potentially win it all. And the rest are trying to catch up. Adding PPTOI vs SO won't suddenly change that.

In all actuality it's actually something that could help some of the rebuilders. Over the past few years finesse players haven't held the greatest value, a lot of them are owned by rebuilders. This not only helps them stat wise but also trade wise. that is my response to that argument.

[Robin Hood]

only going to further widen the gap between top tier and lower tier teams in our league IMO.

Not taking a personal shot but I hate this argument.

We need to make adjustments based on what will make BBKL better not what will help particular teams. I own many players that would get fucked by such a rule change but I don't care. Because in the long run, teams will adjust and make trades accordingly and the league will be better anyways.

you may hate the argument but it doesn't change the fact that parity has been the biggest issue in this league the last few seasons...This will only further widen the gap.

The gap really isn't that massive any longer. Like the real NHL, I'd say we have about 6-8 true contenders, 6-8 mid-tier teams who can still potentially win it all. And the rest are trying to catch up. Adding PPTOI vs SO won't suddenly change that.

In all actuality it's actually something that could help some of the rebuilders. Over the past few years finesse players haven't held the greatest value, a lot of them are owned by rebuilders. This not only helps them stat wise but also trade wise. that is my response to that argument.

It's so true:

Henrik Sedin
Daniel Sedin
Erik Karlsson
Ryan Suter
Dan Boyle
Brian Campbell
Paul Martin
Thomas Vanek
etc. etc.

All owned by non-playoff teams I believe. This is just off the top of my head.

[Chuck Norris]

For the record I wasnt saying I wanted to drop SHTOI. Im dead against that idea myself. All I was saying if you want to balance value between offensive and defensive players (or dmen or whatever) your only options for TRUE BALANCE is by using the two options I listed. Any other cat (ex: points by dman) skews the balance.

[KapG]

Shiv, now go list all the top end players on the contenders. There are very few owned by the non playoff teams ehen comparing it to playoff teams.

[KapG]

For the record I wasnt saying I wanted to drop SHTOI. Im dead against that idea myself. All I was saying if you want to balance value between offensive and defensive players (or dmen or whatever) your only options for TRUE BALANCE is by using the two options I listed. Any other cat (ex: points by dman) skews the balance.

Rgr that.