The Ryan Suter has no value aka value for puck movers thread

[shooker]

Some people are worried about activity ~ they should set the examples they want, post more, trade more. It shouldn't rely on Steve, Shook, Kareem, ' Shiv to be driving activity. I do not think we need to artificially change something to spike activity, and I believe camps will start the chatter again.

I started this thread and those were not my intentions at all. I saw a problem after looking through stats for another league, it really was that simple. We undervalue point producing dmen. I am super concerned with activity but that has nothing to do with this thread.

[The BBKL Insider]

Its the summer, even the real nhl news, rumours and trades are slow.

This is a typical summer

[Nick]

Is there at Category that helps finesse dmen, (that they would be best at), that still gives other positions a chance to contribute?

Toi comes to mind, anything a little more interesting?

[Nick]

* even strength points as well, because its actually quiet a different list than the stpts list. Some top guys of course, but...

[Robin Hood]

TOI
Points from D-Men
Even Strength Points

all decent categories. I'd say TOI is the most fair category as it rewards all players and d-men like Suter would still have a value edge on even top forwards.

[Robin Hood]

Another note on TOI - it would really realign some players values. Eg. a player that PKs at the moment >>> a player that does not among forwards if the point differential is only say 10 points. If you add TOI into the equation, the player getting 10 more points may be getting a lot more TOI. Think Curtis Glencross vs. a true top 6/top3 forward.

[Robin Hood]

One more note about TOI, sorry I'm thinking about this and the more I think about it the more I think it is the perfect category to add:

#1 D-Man (Dan Boyle) vs #3-4 D-Man (Coburn) - Let's say Coburn gets 50-75 more SHTOI on the season, Boyle may get an extra 5-10 minutes per game than Coburn.

#1 W (Patrick Kane) vs Line 2 W (Glencross) - Kane sees approximately 3-5 minutes more of TOI than Glencross even though Glencross is better in SHTOI

#1W (Kane) vs #1D (Suter) - Kane sees 20-22 ish minutes, while Suter will see around 27-28 maybe more. At each of their respective positions, they will remain elite and comparable with each other as well just like in real life where a #1 D-man is considered just as valuable as a #1 W

Every situation you apply TOI to, it aligns with the real NHL. And we still keep SHTOI to reward the players valuable in defensive situations.

[shooker]

TOI
Points from D-Men
Even Strength Points

all decent categories. I'd say TOI is the most fair category as it rewards all players and d-men like Suter would still have a value edge on even top forwards.

it would be a band aide cat imo. It would help a small amount, as it would make players like Matt Greene worth a bit less, but I don't think it would fix the issue entirely. Even Strength points would only further add value to forwards who again, would score harder in that cat.

I personally don't see the issue with having a stat directed at only dmen. I think having a stat that only they score in is the only way to make a top defensemen close in scoring weight week to week as a top forward. Defensemen points is the perfect stat imo. I'd be open to discussing other options, but I have spent a lot of hours looking through stat categories and thus far have seen no stat that comes close to DEF in how it helps impact scoring. Example would be that Chris Kunitz had more impact then Shea Weber in bbkl last year, that wouldn't be true with DEF, which would match real life.

I would love to hear more cats though.

[shooker]

One more note about TOI, sorry I'm thinking about this and the more I think about it the more I think it is the perfect category to add:

#1 D-Man (Dan Boyle) vs #3-4 D-Man (Coburn) - Let's say Coburn gets 50-75 more SHTOI on the season, Boyle may get an extra 5-10 minutes per game than Coburn.

#1 W (Patrick Kane) vs Line 2 W (Glencross) - Kane sees approximately 3-5 minutes more of TOI than Glencross even though Glencross is better in SHTOI

#1W (Kane) vs #1D (Suter) - Kane sees 20-22 ish minutes, while Suter will see around 27-28 maybe more. At each of their respective positions, they will remain elite and comparable with each other as well just like in real life where a #1 D-man is considered just as valuable as a #1 W

Every situation you apply TOI to, it aligns with the real NHL. And we still keep SHTOI to reward the players valuable in defensive situations.

I like this argument but I don't think it will make as big of a difference as you think. Although it might be a decent alternative as it would ruffle less feathers, just not make the impact as other stats would.

I'd definitely take that stat over SO though. I haven't done the numbers but I bet it factors in to less than 30% of the weeks. That to me is a wasted stat, doesn't take away from goalie value either as that stat is usually a tie. I used Henrik Lundqvists 11 shutouts in 82 games that I had him my last season in Colorado, he lead the league that year. that is a high estimate as well, doubt it is 30%

[Robin Hood]

One more note about TOI, sorry I'm thinking about this and the more I think about it the more I think it is the perfect category to add:

#1 D-Man (Dan Boyle) vs #3-4 D-Man (Coburn) - Let's say Coburn gets 50-75 more SHTOI on the season, Boyle may get an extra 5-10 minutes per game than Coburn.

#1 W (Patrick Kane) vs Line 2 W (Glencross) - Kane sees approximately 3-5 minutes more of TOI than Glencross even though Glencross is better in SHTOI

#1W (Kane) vs #1D (Suter) - Kane sees 20-22 ish minutes, while Suter will see around 27-28 maybe more. At each of their respective positions, they will remain elite and comparable with each other as well just like in real life where a #1 D-man is considered just as valuable as a #1 W

Every situation you apply TOI to, it aligns with the real NHL. And we still keep SHTOI to reward the players valuable in defensive situations.

I like this argument but I don't think it will make as big of a difference as you think. Although it might be a decent alternative as it would ruffle less feathers, just not make the impact as other stats would.

I'd definitely take that stat over SO though. I haven't done the numbers but I bet it factors in to less than 30% of the weeks. That to me is a wasted stat, doesn't take away from goalie value either as that stat is usually a tie. I used Henrik Lundqvists 11 shutouts in 82 games that I had him my last season in Colorado, he lead the league that year. that is a high estimate as well, doubt it is 30%

Just saying, Ryan Suter saw 1309 TOI last year. Coburn saw 746. Schenn saw 1027. Giroux saw 1016. St. Louis and Stammer were the first forwards listed in the NHl when sorted by TOi and they were 38 and 39. Of the top 60, 7 were Forwards.

[KapG]

dont like time on ice at all.

shtoi is a staple of our league and i think its the only toi cat we need.

[shooker]

Just saying, Ryan Suter saw 1309 TOI last year. Coburn saw 746. Schenn saw 1027. Giroux saw 1016. St. Louis and Stammer were the first forwards listed in the NHl when sorted by TOi and they were 38 and 39. Of the top 60, 7 were Forwards.

Still don't believe it is the answer, but I would be all for it as oppose to leaving things the way they are. It would be an improvement.

[The BBKL Insider]

I agree with kapg, even tho its well thought out by shiv, I'd prefer shtoi - it creates a more diverse team than just trying to add all top line guys.

Those 3rd liners are important in the bbkl.

[Sensfanjosh]

I don't think the debate it TOI vs. SHTOI Steve, sounds like guys want to have TOI as a cat over shutouts...

[bills09]

would goalies not skew TOI as they do SHTOI

[Peter]

Shook's argument is fair. lets add DEF.

[KapG]

Why do we need to add a stat that's really only gonna effect a few of the elite dmen?

[Peter]

Why do we need to add a stat that's really only gonna effect a few of the elite dmen?

because it makes it more realistic to have those players that effective in our league?

[KapG]

Well I'm not surprised you are for this seeing as you have karlsson.


I'm 100% against this new cat (not that it really matters) which will only make a minor difference in our league for a handful of players.


Like karlsson and suter aren't already very effective. Lol gtfo.

[Sensfanjosh]

Not only does it make those elite d more value but also decreases the value of bottom pairing periph heavy d men, i.e. those who skate 10 minutes but get 7 hits in those 10 minutes.

I'm fine with whatever the league decides as I'm sure the changes won't be taking place for this coming season, and those capable of making such changes will give this the proper thought before making a decision.